08-12-2016, 05:28 PM | #23 | |
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I had an E90 M3 ZCP for a night a month or so ago and they're entirely different animals. I found myself going around corners at speeds I wouldn't even think/dream about ever doing in any car (nonetheless my 235)... without even thinking. The E9x M3 has such a wonderful engine that just BEGS to be wrung out. What a horrible temptress. I'm glad I don't own one lol. I'm sure my slightly modded 235i can keep up, but they're entirely different beasts. |
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08-12-2016, 05:50 PM | #24 |
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08-12-2016, 05:51 PM | #25 |
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08-12-2016, 06:08 PM | #26 |
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Steering in this car is great, not too sure what some complain about.. My guess is you don't drive hard enough to get the feedback desired
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08-12-2016, 07:04 PM | #27 | |
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Hydraulic steering, such as on the E46, merely gives you a power assist so what happens at the tire contact patches gets transmitted to the steering wheel, and vice versa. It's direct feedback and control using hydraulic fluid as a nearly incompressible medium. The overall steering design affects the feel, of course. Some hydraulic steering sucks. Electrical steering, sometimes called "steer by wire", uses wires to electrically transmit steering input to the wheels and vice versa. Software adjusts the steering feel based on what is happening at the wheels, what driving mode you are in, etc. It's more adjustable than hydraulic, and can be lighter and more reliable. IMO, the steering on the my 228i M Sport is excellent when in Sport mode, although not as good as on my old E46. Maybe I'm just getting used to it. After lots of experimenting I now spend most of my driving time in Sport mode with Traction Control On and the drive train set for Comfort (linear shift points across all 8 gears). It handles very well. I don't track my car, so my needs are less demanding than those who do, but I do drive it as hard as I can get away with. |
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08-12-2016, 07:57 PM | #28 |
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Wow, glad this has turned into a pretty great discussion.
I think what eats at me the most is knowing that at the same price point I could have found something slightly more suited to what I want at this point in my life. No doubt everyone has different preferences and have specific needs in a vehicle. Knowing I don't need back seats and can handle a little less comfort for more sport leaves me with a desire for more out of the 235. I fully chalk this up to me not doing my due diligence and am not trying to take the 2 down with me. I'm happy people are really enjoying their 2 and have found ways to make it work for them, it just hasn't provoked the same emotion the m3 did for me. Perhaps time will change that |
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08-12-2016, 08:16 PM | #29 | |
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As the ambient temperature rises, and/or the altitude rises, the air density decreases. Normally aspirated engines lose power when ambient air temperature rises, and/or altitude above sea level rises. There is no escaping this... unless your engine has a turbo charger. And the M235i has inter-coolers, which helps even more. So yes, ambient temperature and altitude do effect engines in a negative way, but turbo charged engines are effected less, and likely hold their own to much higher temperatures and altitudes. In summation, turbos do a lot more than just add HP - they maintain HP.
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08-12-2016, 08:58 PM | #30 | |
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Troll, hey? LOL Last I checked under my hood, there was still a steering shaft in the engine bay of the F22 connected to an electronic r&p just as there is in a hydraulic car, so it's not completely computerized. With this, especially while in turn and powering out, the wheels will still force/push the steering wheel back to center and you will be provided feedback as such, regardless of power supply. Just because it's electric assisted doesn't mean the system is driven solely by a motor/computer. It's not a servo driven system signaled "by wire" like I feel you seem to think it is. It may not "feel" direct, but it's still very much direct, maybe more direct than hydraulic. You do absolutely wait longer for hydraulics than electronics in most mechanical situations, hence why the ladder of cars are now using electric assisted steering systems and cars now have an "improved" feel and sense of "control" from different ratio dynamics that they were lacking with older systems. Vehicles with electric assisted steering can also manipulate dynamics of such ratio changes also improving safety and performance. It's all for good, I promise Lot's of placebo here too, let's not forget. Usually people get used to things over time and then get back into a level of comfort that they're happy with. This will all result in differences of "feel" and is very subjective as a discussion of whats good or bad. Every time I get into a hydro steering car I say to myself "I'm sure glad I don't have hydro steering anymore", but at first I didn't like the feel either. First elec steering assisted car owned was an S4, then our GTI and I finally got passed that phase of getting used to it. Never did I feel I'd have more control though, with hydraulic or electric. It was more of a comfort level with each new car... The problem I would agree with most is the weighting in the system itself, it's just a bit too light and it's absolutely noticeable in comfort mode. It's negligible to me in sport mode as it's firm/heavy enough, very direct and composed during body weight transfer and provides lots of confidence at speed as it gets tighter. The driving dynamics and the variable ratios work very well especially at high speed vs low speed and definitely appreciated in the mountains where I live as the roads are forever changing direction and speed Just my $.02 and I use sport+ to achieve the right "feel" for me D
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08-12-2016, 09:26 PM | #31 |
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Lol, the M235i does not have a steer by wire system......
It has an electronically assisted steering rack. All you E36 guys seem to forget the E36 M3 stock suspension wasn't extremely stiff either, and the steering rack was especially slow and numb. The E46 had a quicker rack, and the E30 was the last one with tons of "feedback. " I think all the M235i lacks is some steering feel.... Otherwise it really reminds me in many ways of my old E36.
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08-12-2016, 09:29 PM | #32 |
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Yeah I'm pretty sure it should be the same for those as well but without having seen something where it said it was 100% identical to the F8X M3/4 I decided to leave it out.
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08-12-2016, 11:24 PM | #33 |
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Love mine. Own an e46 M3c as well as a weekend car. The e46 M3 does drive a bit more on rails, but the M235i is worlds ahead of other daily driver cars. It is also significantly quicker.
The car has done nothing but grow on me. I have driven a lot of 335i including owning the 335d (torque monster) and driving 335is with the M tune. The M235i is better in all driver centric parts. |
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08-13-2016, 01:23 AM | #34 |
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I love my m235i and hope to keep it 10+ years. The car is absolutely the perfect size. The powertrain, suspension and braking are all great. I also love the looks of the car and actually prefer the styling to that of the m2.
Yes, the electric steering is a little lighter than I'd prefer. And, sure, it's possible to argue that, say, the Cayman has better steering feel. That's fair. But, of course, the Cayman has its own drawbacks, as well, such as lack of practicality. There's no such thing as the perfect car. Every car at every price level has compromises and shortcomings. It's just a matter of finding the right car for you. At this point in time, there's no other car on the market that I'd rather own (at least as my daily ride) than the m235i. None. |
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08-13-2016, 01:25 AM | #35 |
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This is a great discussion. I have often asked myself, do I love this car or do I merely respect it? I agree with everyone who suggests modding the suspension of the 2fers because you can start throwing them about but sometimes I ask myself: is respecting a German car for its superb engineering the same as loving it? Can you love a German car in the same way as you can love an Italian one? I'm not sure. I've beefed up my N26 228i about as much as makes sense and yes, I think I love it. There, I said it.
Sometimes, loving a car comes with a price that isn't worth paying. It's better to really, really like a car it makes sense to own, rather than love one you can't actually use to go to the supermarket. I'm determined to get an M2 but in the meantime, I am enjoying the crap out of my modded 228.
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08-13-2016, 01:32 AM | #36 |
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Will the M240 change any minds? That extra tourque is going to be a game changer- lower the car a bit- add some killer 19" wheels of your choice- change out the front arms for a bit better handling. And you have an "M" car without the over wrought fang look- not the track day bits underneath but a perfect amazingly quick and solid car for <60k that does 0-60 in 4.2 not bad.
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08-13-2016, 08:07 AM | #38 |
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This my 4th BMW (135i, E92, F30) and by far my favorite. This the first BMW that I'm considering purchasing off lease - to me that says a lot.
With that said everyone is different and cars can be like women. You get a taste of one that strikes your fancy and you will always long for it. Doesn't matter what your current car (or woman) is. I know exactly how you feel (not the woman part because I married the right one). I had an F30 for almost 3 years that I liked - not loved. I longed for a car that put a smile on my face and now I have one. Would I feel the same if I had come from an E90/E82 M3 that's a damn good question.
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08-13-2016, 09:04 AM | #39 | |
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I can certainly admit that I may be wrong here and admittedly only spent a short amount of time with the NA. Piecing together what both you and Xutvjet said, here's why I stand by my perspective from a consistency stand point. The turbo is supposed to excel in the lower RPM range and really get up and go, where as the NA engine has always needed to be wound out. In hot conditions when the turbos experience much more lag it doesn't have that same pop, whereas you are already expecting the NA engine to have limited pop down low. So while in actuality the heat may effect the NA engine more, it seems to be more noticeable in the FI cars. To me it seems more noticeable which is why I perceive it to lack consistency. |
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08-13-2016, 09:28 AM | #40 |
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I also have to agree.
After a little more than a year I'm kind of over it already and I'm glad I leased it. I will be getting into a M3 as soon as it's done. Hopefully can do a pull ahead. |
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08-13-2016, 10:28 AM | #41 |
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A contradiction in terms.
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08-13-2016, 11:33 AM | #42 |
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This is a good and interesting thread. I had an e36 m3 for 13 years. I agree with dylan86. The steering on the m3 was nice but, I had to replace the steering rack twice, and it was a PITA. Having electric assisted Steering is nice IMO, and one less thing that will wear and leak. As far as steering feel, I agree that the m235i is a little soft in comfort mode, but I like it in sport mode and have no issue with the feel.
The thing about my m3 is after replacing my steering rack the second time, I installed a rack from a z4 which was more aggressive with a shorter ratio from my understanding. It was definitely a better feel than my M235i. I really like the M235i overall. If it weren't for the M2, I'd love it. I've never driven any of my cars at the track, so I may not be the best person to seek a opinion on steering dynamics. I plan on registering for a BMW driving school in September. |
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08-13-2016, 11:40 AM | #43 | |
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M2 isn't for me as real world prices are much higher than M235 or now M240i and I won't track the car or push those handling limits, but posters like the one that started this thread are looking for a special feel that the "m" cars are setup to provide from the factory, you won't get that with the M240i even after adding the suspension changes you've listed. It would cost thousands to properly setup the brakes, suspension, steering, differential, tires/rims and cooling to be on par and then you'd have just been better off getting the M2 if that's what you are trying to mod your car to most like.
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08-13-2016, 12:27 PM | #44 | |
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Bottom line is that for 10 years I really loved my 2005 Mustang GT. It was a head-turner that looked brash, made the right noises, had a raw, visceral, mechanical feel to it, was super heavy duty everywhere, had a mechanical locking differential, was an excellent first track car, and would lay down insanely long thick black rubber strips on hard 1-2 and 2-3 shifts all day long with traction control on! And it did all this mind you on 87 octane while never, ever having a single problem, even a minor issue in all 10 years of ownership. It was bullet-proof and I loved it until the day I sold it. I thought I was ready for a more "grown-up" car - I am 60 years old after all - and the BMW is really nice in a lot of ways. Definitely a huge improvement in interior materials, ride comfort, and attention to detail. There's also the pampered service that comes along with it, the excitement of picking up the car at the Performance Delivery Center in SC, and the general BMW culture. Obviously nothing like the Ford/GM culture. I do love some things about the M235i. The size is perfect. It's roughly the same size as my 1987 Mustang GT (which was also perfect). Outward visibility is awesome. It handles like a sports car and rides like a luxury car. It's quiet and comfortable on the highway. It's predictable, reassuring, and fairly fast on the race track. The MPE has a nice sound, and the M Performance rear diffuser looks special. The quality is everywhere whether it's the sound of the doors shutting, the feel and look of the interior materials, the interior and exterior lighting, and even the sound of the chimes. I'm okay with the exterior styling of the 2 series too. A car guy can look at it and tell it's not the run of the mill 3 series. The big cooling ducts and low bumper in the front, the wide staggered tires, and the dual exhausts give it away. It's a handsome car I guess, but conservative. Certainly not a head-turner. For me, the car is missing just one thing - a naturally aspirated V8. I know they're not politically correct anymore. Fuel usage that's killing the planet. Old school. But when you have grown up with them, and then try to move on, it's just hard. The M235i engine has more horsepower than my '05 Mustang (320 versus 300) and more torque (330 versus 320), and according to the car magazines was quicker in the 1/4 mile (mid-13s versus high-13s). But the M235i has this momentary lag when you first step on the throttle. The BMW engineers have done great work on minimizing turbo lag, but it's still there to a degree. There are threads on this forum with people asking if something as simple as chirping the tires on the 1-2 shift is possible. The answer is yes, but it takes some work and trickery. I don't think a tire chirp on the 2-3 shift is possible with a stock car, unless maybe you're talking about power shifting (without lifting). You take these things for granted on a car like the Mustang or Camaro, or of course a Corvette. You don't need to be talented or turn off anything on those cars - that's just what they do. All day long. Lately, I find myself on the Camaro 6th gen forums, reading about guys taking the 2SS to the track, and their overall satisfaction with the cars in daily use. The 2SS comes stock from the factory with a bolt-on brake ducting kit (in the trunk) that can be quickly installed for track use - and corporate GM has even said publically they will stand behind the warranty on cars that have seen track day use. That's the car I'm lusting after now. Yes, the M2 would be awesome and I'd certainly like one. But truth be told, I think I'd rather have a 455 horsepower NA V8 Camaro 2SS or the 2017 SS 1LE when that comes out. For much less money than the M2.
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